Kain's Game: Feedback

[Kain Darkwind]

I'm disappointed in all of this, and hope that I have not given my game the impression that such things are doomed to failure. I like creative.

Creative isn't the same as foolish. I'd be disappointed if you let something like that succeed, when the target's stats shouldn't allow for it.

Succeed? Or help? I don't like any one-shot solutions, a cannon isn't going to kill the beast in a single blow. I don't even particularly think it feasible that you get one into the area, since you utterly lack them. But if you did have them and a way to get them into a position for an ambush, I'd certainly like to see you try. Nothing foolish about using a bigger gun.

What else, pit falls, trips, Cerataka poison? None of these are one shots. All of them are feasible (the last one considerably less so) means to utilize the environment to give yourself the advantage. Not a quick victory. An advantage.

An empowered scorching ray deals 6d6 damage. The ape took 67. A critical hit is within range of that damage. Not a bad guess. Not telling you if it is right or not.

6d6 per ray. I was assuming three rays (since that's how many you get if your CL gives you 4th level spells), and slightly above average damage rolls.

You saw two bolts. One hit the monk. One hit the ape.

Yes. He suggested more people too.

He also thought we'd be fighting it on the ground, with conventional hunting methods. Kat suggested something that, by the information we had at the time, would make them unnecessary, and kill it with no risk.

No risk. No challenge. Not likely for an encounter around or above your party level. Ever. Reduced risk from good tactics. Never eliminated.

You don't know its AC. Or "they're" attack bonuses, since you haven't ever named people to go with. At all. This isn't even metagaming, this is making things up.

Farshore Militia, Olman hunters/warriors... 1st level Warriors, either way. There's the Jade Ravens, but they're not expendable, and at least one, maybe more of them are not available. I suppose there could be Olman elites, but then we'd be throwing away the best of our new allies.

You have NO way of knowing what Olman hunter/warrior stats are. You do know they are better than your militia members. Did I ever even provide stats for the Farshore militia? Which I did mention cannot currently abandon Farshore due to the proximity of troglodyte attacks on the islet of Tremute and other internal concerns like a mysterious thief raiding the warehouses.

And let's just assume a 1st level human warrior. 13 through 8 base ability score spread. 15 attack score. +1 BaB. +1 weapon focus. That's a +4 attack, +1 more if you provide a masterwork weapon or magic weapon, +1 more if you provide a bless spell, +2 more if you have one aid another. +8 off hand, for the lowest possible warrior. Ranged attacks might have +1 point blank shot. If Olman hunters are actually 1st level rangers with animal favored enemy, that's +2 more. If they are barbarians with Brutal Throw, that's also +2 more. If they are 3rd level instead of 1st, that's +2 more. (Hey, if they were 3rd level barb/rangers, you might get both of those previous +2 bonuses too!) If they were elite array instead of 13-8, that's +1 more.

And again, you don't know what the AC is. With that bottom number of +8, you have an average chance of hitting AC 18, and no real chance of hitting AC 28 or better. If you got awesomely lucky and could apply all of those bonuses, +16. Average chance with AC 26 and no real chance of hitting 36 or better. Worst case scenario, they stop firing at the T-Rex and keep the scavengers off your backs.

Dip arrows in pitch and light them for bonus fire damage. Cover them in poison and hope for a low Fort roll. Use greater magic weapon on them. You don't want to think outside the box, there is plenty within the box to try.

As for keeping them out of reach/dying in one hit, some things are worth dying for and this is war. You aren't conscripting these folks, last I checked. You've been fairly forthcoming (as have the NPCs) about the likelihood of death. Those who go to fight, know they may never return. Hopefully, that includes you guys too.

If I were convinced that anyone we bring could have any impact on the outcome of the fight, live or die, I might feel differently. But I know that with just the PCs, we have an escape method with a good shot of getting all of us out alive if things start to go badly (teleport).[/quote]

Unless your escape method gets eaten or killed in one hit, as you've pointed out is a possibility.

But ultimately, you guys get to decide what to do. In character, two experienced hunters have said stay away, but if you fight, go in force. Judging from OOC, there wasn't even a real consensus between you and Roon, and Ginsu was even farther out of line with the plans. Coriat has yet to weigh in on the fight, but I can only assume that he'll follow the same pattern and not agree with any of you.

[Coriat]

Coriat has yet to weigh in on the fight, but I can only assume that he'll follow the same pattern and not agree with any of you.

Speak of the devil and he's sure to appear!

And yeah, you're right , I would have argued for accepting Olman help if I had been present. Who said that the best Tanaroa could come up with is a bunch of level 1 warriors? Are they going to send their worst warriors on such a dangerous mission and try to get them killed? But even level 1 warriors can make themselves useful. Heck Einar could have distributed some flasks of acid, or alchemists fire if it would be safe with the terrain, I'm sure the dinosaur has an abysmal touch AC. Fifty-plus fire and acid damage is not to be sneezed at! And wouldn't asking these people to fight against the Crimson Fleet be as liable to get some killed as fighting this dinosaur?

Water under the bridge though now.

If you are worried about Kat (or the rest of us, *cough* meleers *cough*) getting swallowed, freedom of movement would be a really good spell to look into. Not knowing what other tactics you've discussed, though, I won't say anything else (except maybe we could talk over AIM before the session about it, at least the OOC parts, rather than during?)

The second solo session reminded me of the cryptic-old-man-musings OOTS comic . Although Makacoicoi's cryptic musings thankfully were topical and somewhat helpful. Hopefully he can come up with some decent information and, even more hopefully he doesn't get sucked into a tentacle-filled rift if he does (or whatever it is that happens to people who investigate these sort of things).

I wonder if whatsisname's going north while Heinrick, Einar and Kat were in Farshore is at all related, but sadly nobody's mentioned it to Einar.

[Kain Darkwind]

I wonder if whatsisname's going north while Heinrick, Einar and Kat were in Farshore is at all related, but sadly nobody's mentioned it to Einar.

Or anyone else for that matter. And even if it hadn't been spelled out for them, neither Einar, nor Kat, nor Heinrick seemed to think it strange that of the two companions they left in the village, only one was on hand to go to the volcanoes with them.

Wouldn't be the first NPC that no one cared about enough to even check if they had a pulse. Probably won't be the last.

[Coriat]

No, Einar doesn't think it's strange. Probably because he only met the guy for like a minute, and nobody ever said (or at least told Einar) that he was there to go to the volcano also? Einar probably assumes he's either still in Tanaroa or has gone back to Farshore after doing whatever he was in Tanaroa for.

Doesn't mean I as a player don't care, nor that Einar wouldn't bother to check his pulse if he was bleeding out, either. Just that Einar has no reason to think anything odd happened as far as I can tell.

[WarDragon]

I was under the impression that Tycho told us what happened to Moradon. Am I incorrect? If so, I don't even think it's the strangest thing he's done.

[Aluroon]

Wouldn't be the first NPC that no one cared about enough to even check if they had a pulse. Probably won't be the last.

You're the one that wanted to hurry to the volcano. Would you have preferred a 30 minute scene of Katrina and Tycho bickering? I assumed that he told us, like several things that had happened, off screen.

[Kain Darkwind]

I was under the impression that Tycho told us what happened to Moradon. Am I incorrect? If so, I don't even think it's the strangest thing he's done.

I did not see Tycho say anything. Nor do I find that to be the strangest thing he's ever done. It does seem less normal that no one was curious as to where the big strong warrior went while they confronted a god, or that the question didn't arise again when they planned to take on one of the oldest dinos on the isle.

Wouldn't be the first NPC that no one cared about enough to even check if they had a pulse. Probably won't be the last.

You're the one that wanted to hurry to the volcano. Would you have preferred a 30 minute scene of Katrina and Tycho bickering? I assumed that he told us, like several things that had happened, off screen.

I did not see any interest in the matter arise. Not on the way to the volcano, not on the way back from the volcano, not in the PbP that occurred on the way back from the volcano, and not in the entire session after the volcano. You weren't given time to dick around in town, that's true. You had plenty of time once you were out to chit chat. Four and a half IC days so far, as a matter of fact.

You aren't being docked XP for it. Just pointing out to Coriat that having an NPC's comings and goings pass completely without mention by the rest of this party is par for the course, so as not to alarm him and his new guy status.

[Ginsu Again]

I dont recall anyone returning from Farshore and counting heads asking about him. Im sure Tycho wouldnt withhold the information if asked but if a priest sees a guy communing with his god for almost a day, then refusing to wait around before using his god gifted strength to push open a gate im assuming is in excess of several hundred pounds, not only does he know what hes doing, hes capable of handling himself, and having been sent on a mission from his god to accomplish alone thats his business. Tycho does have every intention of burning a sending at camp tonight to check on him since they were friends as far as Tycho was concerned.

I dont see any reason Tycho should be forthcoming with information no one else seems to care about. He hasnt exactly been welcomed into the party with compassion or even tolerance. I would rather expect Katrina to be more accountable for that sort of thing but clearly shes too busy looking for ways to talk down to people. I dont recall anyone ensuring that the crazy imbecile priest actually arranged for the Olmans to send troops to help Farshore either. I would think since the party leaders have so little trust or respect for an established member of the city council and a beloved member of the town they would double check things like that.

Perhaps I am playing my character wrong? If so I would like to know how Chaotic characters act. If anyone had ever tried to do anything to earn his trust its more likely he might have a little more respect for them but as it is hes out in the jungle with a stuck up chick that thinks shes better than everyone that has yet to stand trial for desertion (not to mention her outburst during a council meeting which showed how much respect she has for the people that spent the last several years struggling to create a settlement in the wilderness) and Lavina's boy toy that got to town shouting orders and trying to get the established government replaced without even seeing what was going on. Not to mention neither of them can take a joke and one actually poured a tankard of ale on him. Tremendous party foul. Einar seems like a good enough sort but again he has yet to show Tycho that he has the towns best interests at heart. At least he can take a joke.

I dont think anyone can look back and say Tycho didn't make every attempt to be friendly and outgoing. Kick a dog long enough and hes gonna at least stop wagging his tail.

[Coriat]

I can do feedback early since it won't take that long; since the full session was a combat, there's not much else to comment on. So without further ado,

The combat seemed interminable. Add to that, Einar had so little impact on it that I might as well have slept through the session. I hope this does not happen next week and that we can either get the hell out of this fight or finish it somehow, then go kill a friggin dinosaur.

Four hours of solid combat, not being able to ever roll a single attack roll or even assist in causing any damage to the enemy, failing every skill check (even with my best rolls in full ranked skills) that could have helped. And now it seems that I won't even be able to climb fast enough to get close to the thing.

Didn't even manage to soak up any damage for the rest of the team even when I was trying to get it to shoot at me instead of our casters and wounded. Single most significant thing that either Einar did or that even happened to him in the combat was passing a will save against a spell from our own caster.

I want to charge straight at that dinosaur. Even if it has AC 500, at least I'll be able to miss.

It was a pretty frustrating session. Sitting out the first two hours, while not ideal, is not something I mind very much. Sometimes things drag on a bit longer than expected. But it honestly didn't get much better after that. It was a lot less fun than the other two sessions I've been in so far.

I guess I will have to check out these movies though.

[Aluroon]

This was probably one of the least enjoyable sessions I can remember in the game. Beyond the incredible irritation of how the combat played out and how some rules work in Pathfinder it just wasn't fun. That said, given my recent irritation with most of the combats on the whole I can't say definitively that it was just this combat that bugged me. The sticking point for the game has never been killing things and taking their stuff - if I wanted that I could go get WoW - and getting away from the parts of the game I've enjoyed in the past for a while is frustrating. That said, I know though that we have people here after a number of different things in the game and don't begrudge them getting what they want.

What really capped it off was the big reveal at the end. Something about having sci-fi casually thrown into the game really bothered me. It really cheapened the entire setting for me, rather than a living breathing fantasy setting it feels like a your own little joke. It's hard for me to have respect for a setting that has popular culture monsters from different genres casually dropping in, and as such it's hard for me to have respect for the game. It was like Iron Man causally getting dropped into the Wheel of Time.

[Ginsu Again]

I for one found the idea of fighting an invisible opponent interesting. Trying to guess where it was and seeing the ensuing chao in character was fun for me. I went from thinking it was in the air, to thinking there was a crew of them in the trees, to thinking there was a bad guy and a good guy trying to help. Tycho didnt have a clue what was going on. Then when the thing snatched me out of the air and started stabbing I almost emoted losing control of my bowels! Its not often you play a DnD encounter where you feel hunted like that. Pretty cool.

The fighting did go on for a long time though. Of course its not like we didnt have opportunities to break combat and regroup, we just didnt. Some fights you just cant seem to win and I personally have no problem living to fight another day. We just couldnt get the retreat coordinated. Oh well. The fight lasted as long as it did because of our own actions and inability to effectively fight the beast.

So it was a creature based on the predator after all? Hmmm. All I can say is it was a fun fight. I just wish it had been faster. As far as the incorporating sci-fi into fantasy I dont know that I have a problem with that. Its not like the Enterprise showed up and handed out lazer weapons to the pirates. To me I dont think the monster was imported into the setting so much as Kain created an encounter with the idea of the predator in mind and stayed pretty well true to what he thought it would do. Knowing Kain enjoys statting out characters and monsters like that Im not really surprised he would playtest some of his creations against us. I imagine that IF we kill the creature and IF we are able to discern its origin it will be something more faithful to the storyline than, "Its a Predator from outer space that got caught in Ravenloft and the mists deposited him on the Isle of Dread!" Even if it does turn out to be an alien Tycho will remove its head and start a tour group displaying the Creature from Beyond to villages for a fee. There has to be some money in running a freak show.

I notice again that a lot of in game discussion is taking part in the OOC chatroom. Its my understanding that speaking is a free action. If you have a suggestion for a character to take, say it in game. Thats my opinion anyway. I may not always be successful but I try to not let OOC discussion affect my actions as a character. In fact sometimes I feel like Im cheating if I do. Turning off the invisability ring or going to heal Heinrick are examples of that. I do try to keep track of party members HP on my own because I think Tycho would take care to monitor what kind of damage his party is suffering in game but if someone is shouting his HP total in OOC its like metagaming in my mind. I can evaluate characters in game to get a solid total if I need to.

It would be nice if the pace of things in combat picked up a little more. I know in Kains case hes plotting the enemys and a lot of times there are more than one to deal with so it takes time, keep trying to improve as always. For my fellow players sometimes I think theyre putting too much thought in their actions. Theres only so much you can do, you know? Speaking of play times, I know Im still fuzzy on some rules. Ive been studying the rulebook when I can but some things I have to see in action to understand. Also Im not a numbers person. A lot of this stuff all I can do is try to remember where to find it in the rulebook and reference it on the fly. Thanks to Einar for helping me with Concentration Checks and other things without making me feel like a moron for not spending my whole life with my nose stuck in a rulebook. I have a job, I work more than 40 hours a week, I have a family that would like me to give them attention. Cut me some slack.

I guess thats considerably more than 2 cents worth of feedback. Keep the change Kain.

[Kain Darkwind]

Been quite some time since I was this pissed off about the game. Gave it a couple days to cool off, but still mad.


The sniveling bitching ends. Or your run with the game does. I've had to say it thrice now, and I won't say it ever again. New guys, you haven't pushed my buttons on this one, but you'll unfortunately have to operate under this as well. I hear one more complaint about what someone's Perception check should be able to do, with the implication that somehow I'm getting it wrong, one more snide comment about how I look at the d20 rather than the result, and you are history. I don't get it wrong, and you don't know enough to say that I do in any case. If Kat rolls a goddamned natural 20 and still can't hear or feel or smell sh.it, then that ought to tell you this sucker is undetectable by your means. Suck it up and drive on. This goes for anything. If you can't hit your foe on a 16, if your SR check fails with a 19, if your 45 AC gets nailed with a power attack. Tired of hearing incessant metagaming bitching. Keep that sh.it bottled up or let it out on whatever private channel/PMbox/AIM you are using to communicate out of my purview.

Here's another thing. Just because you don't or can't detect/hit/bespell something, doesn't make it broken. Stop your crying about that. And just because a solution isn't dropped in your lap doesn't mean one doesn't exist. Hearing players say the game doesn't allow for creative solutions is discouraging and reveals a lack of willingness to employ imagination. When Kat had to help with the birth, that was a relatively risk free setting in which the chance for a creative solution was offered. That stuff exists elsewhere, it doesn't need a glowing DM sign on it. And sometimes it exists in risky environments, not just safe ones.

Sometimes, the game is going to reward your power points. Sometimes, running up and bashing works. Sometimes, you get 30 rounds of prep time before a fight because you spot the foes. Sometimes, you might get access to a monster's stat block because you know about it. And other times, the game challenges you in those same points. Sometimes AC will be too high to power attack, sometimes the monster will be immune to your sneak attack or spells, sometimes you won't see it coming or know what you are dealing with. Deal with it, and stop crying every time things get tough that they are broken rather than designed to challenge you.

Someone who can't read the right spell duration off the page or notice when someone turns off their invisibility ring as asked OUT OF CHARACTER rather than in has no business snipping at people in a cunty tone. No one does, as a matter of fact, and people are going to quit being pricks all around. I hate to see that most of the smug elitism is coming from my older (game-time) players, the ones I should be able to count on to bring new people into the game and help them get comfortable with the way we play as quickly as possible. This isn't goddamned YouTube, where you can just say whatever the hell you want to a bunch of strangers. We're playing a game, a social activity. If you can't help with the rules without being a dick, shut the hell up when asked. Apparently I, with my limitless patience and gracious loving kind nature, will have to shoulder this burden as well. Naturally, I'd prefer if my players helped each other, like human beings who can be civil and gracious when in a position of strength and knowledge. That is my perfect will. But should one be unable to manage that, my permissive will allows for you to be still and not add negativity to the situation.

I don't get paid for this. I do it because it is fun. As of late, due to actions completely within your control, it has not been fun. That will change, by whatever means it must. Maybe some of you, upon reading this, will realize you can't have any fun in the game with those restrictions upon you. To be civil to your fellow players. To pay attention. To stop a goddamned running metagame commentary on the DM's ability to adjudicate a DC. Drop out. If the game goes down to a single player and they can enjoy themselves without others, I'll keep running it, even if that is the newest, least connected to the story player we've got. If the game goes down to no players, I get about thirty plus hours of freetime a week dropped in my lap that I can spend with my girlfriend and family. Don't bug me either way. But I'm not going to keep running a game that is a millstone around my friggin' neck, grinding away just to please your whims.


And finally, this is my world. I don't owe any of you sh.it. You play in it both because presumably, you want to, and because I let you. I don't have to tell you anything in advance, I don't have to give you anything 'going in'. I dictate what this world, this universe and this cosmos has, not you. If you don't like that, get the hell out and go find someone who DMs Forgotten Realms or Eberron by the book so that you don't have to worry about any of your assumptions. Don't you tell me that I've misrepresented an alien hunter from afar because you saw in a movie something else. Don't you tell me that I'm not allowed to have an alien hunter from afar in the movie because you don't have a clue about the history of Dungeons and Dragons and don't like having your preconceptions jostled. If I have you meet Elminster, Bugs Bunny or Jesus the Christ of Nazareth on the Roman cross, that is my prerogative as the DM. Mine. If I want to use the Warcraft planar structure for my planes, that's my right. If I want to have the world be a dream of A'tuin the World Turtle induced by Rincewind, or have Asmodeus be a puppet of Final Fantay's Chaos, I get to do that too.

And now that I have established that I can do anything I want in my world, without needing to explain beforehand or justify it to the players, I will point out that the appearance of a yautja hardly bumps the bar in terms of breaking in-game realism. Aliens with advanced technology already exist in Dungeons and Dragons and have since its earliest days. Since before some of you were even born. If you don't like that, you should probably find another RPG that contains concepts that constitute what you imagine to be a more pure form of the game. DnD is only going to let you down there.


I will address your specific feedback in the near future. I agree that it was a bad session, and for reasons beyond my personal anger at the way people have been conducting themselves.

[Kain Darkwind]

The combat seemed interminable. Add to that, Einar had so little impact on it that I might as well have slept through the session. I hope this does not happen next week and that we can either get the hell out of this fight or finish it somehow, then go kill a friggin dinosaur.

It was a pretty frustrating session. Sitting out the first two hours, while not ideal, is not something I mind very much. Sometimes things drag on a bit longer than expected. But it honestly didn't get much better after that. It was a lot less fun than the other two sessions I've been in so far.

I apologize sincerely for the delay in getting you into the game to begin with. I did not realize how long things were going to drag on. And once you were in the game, things continued to drag. As a side note, this is why I don't like people to miss sessions or split up from the party, even for good reasons. I know it is unavoidable, but things like this invariably spring up.

For some reason, no matter what preparations the party has against invisibility, that particular quality has continually slowed this game to an absolute crawl. It has happened twice before and this is no exception. Possibly because some of the players don't like to play the blunderer, they lock down in a situation where most of their choices are probably going to end up with bad results. For your part, I thought you made several decisive actions throughout, both as a character and as a player.

I guess I will have to check out these movies though.

The first one in particular is excellent.

This was probably one of the least enjoyable sessions I can remember in the game. Beyond the incredible irritation of how the combat played out and how some rules work in Pathfinder it just wasn't fun. That said, given my recent irritation with most of the combats on the whole I can't say definitively that it was just this combat that bugged me. The sticking point for the game has never been killing things and taking their stuff - if I wanted that I could go get WoW - and getting away from the parts of the game I've enjoyed in the past for a while is frustrating. That said, I know though that we have people here after a number of different things in the game and don't begrudge them getting what they want.

Hopefully the game will swing around again to those points you enjoy.

What really capped it off was the big reveal at the end. Something about having sci-fi casually thrown into the game really bothered me. It really cheapened the entire setting for me, rather than a living breathing fantasy setting it feels like a your own little joke. It's hard for me to have respect for a setting that has popular culture monsters from different genres casually dropping in, and as such it's hard for me to have respect for the game. It was like Iron Man causally getting dropped into the Wheel of Time.

I've gone over this in my feedback, but I'll say it again. My game, my world. If you have a better one in mind, start up a frickin' game, and I'll be glad to play and not question your Perception rulings. And watch real carefully how you piss into this particular bowl of my Cheerios. My idea of a joke is spraying gore on Heinrick all the time, not in an encounter that I've planned out for months ahead of time, seeding foreshadows throughout various sessions.

I for one found the idea of fighting an invisible opponent interesting. Trying to guess where it was and seeing the ensuing chao in character was fun for me. I went from thinking it was in the air, to thinking there was a crew of them in the trees, to thinking there was a bad guy and a good guy trying to help. Tycho didnt have a clue what was going on. Then when the thing snatched me out of the air and started stabbing I almost emoted losing control of my bowels! Its not often you play a DnD encounter where you feel hunted like that. Pretty cool.

While I'm glad you enjoyed it, no one else (other than Coriat) seems to be able to actually act when faced with a foe they can't see. Which is why four rounds dragged into four hours. Could you perhaps share why and how you were able to act despite not having a clear advantage?

The fighting did go on for a long time though. Of course its not like we didnt have opportunities to break combat and regroup, we just didnt. Some fights you just cant seem to win and I personally have no problem living to fight another day. We just couldnt get the retreat coordinated. Oh well. The fight lasted as long as it did because of our own actions and inability to effectively fight the beast.

The retreat was another sticking point. Whether you ran or stayed to fight doesn't really matter to me, the creature ambushed you more or less and getting clear to regroup has much going for it, just as staying to deal with the invisible foe immediately, rather than waiting for it to attack again. But half the team doing one thing and half doing another is going to lead to dead characters.

If this is what ends up happening in the looming TT fight, someone's probably losing their character. Possibly more than one.

I notice again that a lot of in game discussion is taking part in the OOC chatroom. Its my understanding that speaking is a free action. If you have a suggestion for a character to take, say it in game. Thats my opinion anyway. I may not always be successful but I try to not let OOC discussion affect my actions as a character. In fact sometimes I feel like Im cheating if I do. Turning off the invisability ring or going to heal Heinrick are examples of that. I do try to keep track of party members HP on my own because I think Tycho would take care to monitor what kind of damage his party is suffering in game but if someone is shouting his HP total in OOC its like metagaming in my mind. I can evaluate characters in game to get a solid total if I need to.

I'm more middle of the road than you on this one. I agree, suggestions on actions need to happen in character more often than out. Hit point totals however, are something I do like to keep a relative current track of. As the DM, it gives me the ability to focus on the wounded or the strong, depending on the particular killstyle of the enemy that I'm running. And yes, I feel that there is too much delay creeping into people's actions. I'm not seeing folks type done after they are done, I am not seeing folks keep track of their initiative and I want to see that reverse back to where I can focus nearly entirely on the foes and the descriptive text, rather than also trying to keep the gameplay flowing.

I guess thats considerably more than 2 cents worth of feedback. Keep the change Kain.

Razortooth, not T-Rex. The Latin names are for scholars in the world, not the Olman nor Farshoremen. You can take that to the bank.

[WarDragon]

Feedback for 10/31

That sucked. While I'm not as angry about the inclusion of sci-fi elements, I will say it was more than a little jarring, especially since we had no reason at all to believe the foreshadowing of it was anything other than demonic. Now, more importantly, about the fight itself... seriously, please don't do that again. Keeping everyone from playing to their strengths in every fight is not remotely the same thing as rendering the entire party completely useless, barring a stroke of fate or bad tactics from the enemy that lets us blunder into it.

[Kain Darkwind]

Feedback for 10/31

That sucked. While I'm not as angry about the inclusion of sci-fi elements, I will say it was more than a little jarring, especially since we had no reason at all to believe the foreshadowing of it was anything other than demonic. Now, more importantly, about the fight itself... seriously, please don't do that again. Keeping everyone from playing to their strengths in every fight is not remotely the same thing as rendering the entire party completely useless, barring a stroke of fate or bad tactics from the enemy that lets us blunder into it.

Can you expound upon the difference in more detail, WD? I don't disagree with you off hand, but I would like some further explanation.

[Kain Darkwind]

Feedback this week should be accompanied with EITHER a Wisdom check or a Intelligence check. Not both.

[Kain Darkwind]

For my part, here's feedback on the session.


There was no OOC bitching. This is good and should continue. There was also....less OOC happiness. This is not good. I understand it might take some time getting back into things after a week off, a month long combat, and a session that ended largely in reprimand. I want that time to be short, though. We should all be in this to have fun, and while that certainly requires me to do so, it also includes the rest of you.

Coriat, I know you are new. In RP situations, the players have very much control over the pacing of the discussions. If you don't go do things, or say things to which NPCs might respond, you'll get less out of it. Also, while I'm juggling three (or four) conversations, should you see me respond to a PC who acted after you, feel free to ask in the OOC room if I've seen your remarks. I may have missed them in the shuffle, as I try to respond to each player in the order they presented their actions. I may not have, and just evaluating a response.

You didn't really do anything wrong this session, I just sort of got the feeling you weren't able to get into things as much. I do want to bring you into this story so that you don't feel like the new guy who's on the outside looking in.

[Aluroon]

This week was better than our last game. The combat wasn't nearly as frustrating and we got an opportunity to do some NPC interaction at the end. I'd drop something here for Coriat about how he seemed to be frustrated by the later, but you've already done so. I will however say that generally it's been my experience in the game that getting through combat in an hour is extremely unlikely, so rushing off into another fight didn't seem wise, given that we'd have to break in the middle of combat with Tycho elsewhere.

Props on the last two scenes before the end. Came across as really creepy to have Heinrick walking into Lavinia's council and Katrina, unbeknown to the others, entering Meravanchi's council. Really came across as treacherous.

Feedback this week should be accompanied with EITHER a Wisdom check or a Intelligence check. Not both.

Int check @ 18

There was no OOC bitching. This is good and should continue.

There was less to bitch about. We weren't getting sniped by an invisible hidden foe from hundreds of feet away or attacked in melee by the same foe without any idea what was happening.

There was also....less OOC happiness. This is not good. I understand it might take some time getting back into things after a week off, a month long combat, and a session that ended largely in reprimand. I want that time to be short, though. We should all be in this to have fun, and while that certainly requires me to do so, it also includes the rest of you.

I don't really have a good response to this.

[Coriat]

Wis check = 15.

The combat was much better this week, which probably comes naturally of having a better idea of what's going on, OOCly, as well as things to do.

Kain, I've got no major complaints about the last session. I was a little less in the action in the chapel, but I have no problem introducing myself if a couple minutes go by without anyone else doing it, or asking a question again if the NPC (or PC) doesn't answer the first time. And everyone can't be writing the same amount all the time; if Heinrick and Kat were the focus in the chapel, Kat and Einar mostly monopolized afterwards. I don't feel deprived of my fair share of interaction.

I also spent a while during the chapel conversation figuring out how Einar should react to the idea that the Jade Ravens would go deal with the troglodytes; that caught me entirely by surprise OOC and so I spent a good time thinking rather than typing, but that's fine as I expect it would have caught Einar by surprise IC too.

This week was better than our last game. The combat wasn't nearly as frustrating and we got an opportunity to do some NPC interaction at the end. I'd drop something here for Coriat about how he seemed to be frustrated by the later, but you've already done so. I will however say that generally it's been my experience in the game that getting through combat in an hour is extremely unlikely, so rushing off into another fight didn't seem wise, given that we'd have to break in the middle of combat with Tycho elsewhere.

When I brought up the idea of trying to finish one of the other tasks, I think we had a good two hours left, almost half the session. That said, I was wondering if there was anything quick (IC and OOC) to do, not insisting. I might have been a bit more pressing about it in the OOC room than normal, but that's because I wanted to figure out quickly whether we would be attempting a task or not, not because I was set on doing so. I do have a dislike to spending a long time OOC deciding what to do.

I wanted to play Einar as a bit frustrated during the discussion in the chapel, due to his having an objection to the plan that had been laid out, but not feeling free to state it in the present company. If I've given the impression that it's myself who was frustrated, my apologies as this was not so.

[WarDragon]

Feedback for 11/14

Int check: 13 + 3 = 16.

The combat was, as the others said, far less frustrating than last week, though ending like that felt anticlimactic. I'll always wonder if we could have won outright had Tycho been present... I do agree on the reasons for stopping where we did, though. It's very hard to get through any kind of challenging fight in just an hour, and even an easy fight could have finished us off.

Honestly though, I was just feeling burnt out by the end of the session; if Heinrick was quieter than usual, or I took longer responding, that's why. I hardly even remember much of what was said. No fault of yours, Kain.

And I'm now feeling calm enough to respond to this:

Keeping everyone from playing to their strengths in every fight is not remotely the same thing as rendering the entire party completely useless, barring a stroke of fate or bad tactics from the enemy that lets us blunder into it.

Can you expound upon the difference in more detail, WD? I don't disagree with you off hand, but I would like some further explanation.

The entire setup for the Predator fight was designed to make us completely helpless. Every single thing on our character sheets was irrelevant; can't attack what you can't see, and you told us flat out that even Katrina's godly Perception check didn't even come close to finding it... as far as we could tell, it apparently didn't even need line of sight to target us, which just throws basic assumptions about d20 combat out the window. If the Yautja hadn't come down and attacked in melee, we wouldn't even have known it was corporeal. If Tycho hadn't been "lucky" enough to fly right past it, or if it hadn't grappled him when he did, the combat this past week would have been identical to that of Halloween; getting sniped by something we couldn't identify or locate, and having no possible chance to meaningfully retaliate. Being reduced to a wild, gambling guess as to a creature's location, and then dealing only minuscule damage when you're right, no matter what you do, is not fun.

[Kain Darkwind]

The entire setup for the Predator fight was designed to make us completely helpless. Every single thing on our character sheets was irrelevant; can't attack what you can't see, and you told us flat out that even Katrina's godly Perception check didn't even come close to finding it...

Its prefight camouflage was beyond Kat's ability to find it, since it rolled better than her. And was invisible. And was far away. This isn't innate to the Predator. Nothing on your character sheets was irrelevant. Later on in the fight, Tycho was able to locate the creature, once it began fighting rather than hiding and sniping.

And you could have run. I didn't expect you to lose, but once you started losing, you probably should have cut out.

as far as we could tell, it apparently didn't even need line of sight to target us, which just throws basic assumptions about d20 combat out the window. If the Yautja hadn't come down and attacked in melee, we wouldn't even have known it was corporeal.

It had line of sight to you. But keep in mind, that's for me to determine, not you guys. Just because you don't realize how it is tracking you doesn't mean it is breaking the rules. And even if it had some ability to break those rules, you don't need to worry about it. You just need to deal with it. I don't like the game slowing to a crawl every time scenarios are non-standard bash fests. Again, the two new guys to the game managed to take actions, without the same paralysis that has characterized you and Roon in these situations. This is hardly the first time you guys have absolutely locked down if your standard methods don't work. You've been absolutely terrible with any ambush situation. You keep trying to determine the meta-game methods that the monsters are using against you. Stop it. Start treating the situations like your character would if he wasn't in a world composed of d20 rules.

If Tycho hadn't been "lucky" enough to fly right past it, or if it hadn't grappled him when he did, the combat this past week would have been identical to that of Halloween; getting sniped by something we couldn't identify or locate, and having no possible chance to meaningfully retaliate. Being reduced to a wild, gambling guess as to a creature's location, and then dealing only minuscule damage when you're right, no matter what you do, is not fun.

Tycho wasn't lucky at all. He rolled a high Perception check, while within range of the creature rather than hundreds of feet away.

And next time if you are under fire and can't locate or identify the source, perhaps you should retreat rather than insisting on staying and fighting. Come back to the situation later. Do some detective work. Set a trap. Stop trying to outlast and outbash all of your problems. Coriat and Ginsu both tried to get you to retreat. Given the end result of the combat, I'd say they were right. If he'd been power attacking on that crit this Saturday, you'd be dead, rather than just used as a bargaining chip.

Bottom line, the reason there 'was no possible chance' was because you (two) guys locked up and didn't act. You guys are too scared to fail, and it absolutely drags out all of these combats. The others acted, given their limited options.

[Ginsu Again]

I actually had a pretty good time last night. Still a few things weighing on Tychos mind regarding the prisoners. He feels especially responsible for The Anvils imprisonment, hopefully well work that out in pbp this week. Im having a lot of trouble imagining how Tycho is supposed to react to the prisoners. I mean they clearly deserve to be locked up but with freedom being a primary concern to him how should he react? Maybe one of you can give me some more insight on this. As a chaotic character I dont know that hes supportive of LAWFUL imprisonment but what about JUST imprisonment? Not to mention that he told The Anvil he would arrange his release in exchange for information. I definitely want to get that worked out before we head back into the jungle.

Im glad Tycho had the opportunity to create some backstory and hopefully iron things out with Katrina a bit. As much fun as I had ribbing her I could only see their relationship getting worse. I hope they continue to build on their understanding of each other at least to the point where they trust each other. Im sure that the debate regarding the Razortooth wont do much to help with that though.

All in all I thought it was a good session. Maybe by the time we get back into town next time Amella will have the militia whipped into fighting shape. Although I wasnt there for Kats discussion with her orc friends I was troubled to see that they werent being accepted by the townspeople. Tycho certainly wouldnt stand for that and would want to address it before we left also.

[Aluroon]

I've never been shy about advertising that I enjoy the RP sessions more in general than the combat ones. This was no exception. Working through some of the issues she has with Tycho was good, productive even, as was finding a use for the tiger that will hopefully make him happy too. I have no specific objection to anything that happened and greatly enjoyed this session. While I still disagree to an extent with the plan for taking others along OOC, I'm willing to go along with it. IC Katrina of course objects to the entire thing.

I am slightly excited though at the opportunity to hunt down and kill sharptooth. My revenge on that matter has been too long in coming.

[Kain Darkwind]

I am slightly excited though at the opportunity to hunt down and kill sharptooth. My revenge on that matter has been too long in coming.

Sometimes when we get something, we think it is something that it is not. But don't worry. Your DM knows what is in your heart.

[Kain Darkwind]

Still a few things weighing on Tychos mind regarding the prisoners. He feels especially responsible for The Anvils imprisonment, hopefully well work that out in pbp this week. Im having a lot of trouble imagining how Tycho is supposed to react to the prisoners. I mean they clearly deserve to be locked up but with freedom being a primary concern to him how should he react? Maybe one of you can give me some more insight on this. As a chaotic character I dont know that hes supportive of LAWFUL imprisonment but what about JUST imprisonment? Not to mention that he told The Anvil he would arrange his release in exchange for information. I definitely want to get that worked out before we head back into the jungle.

It depends on how chaotic and how good you are playing your character. Notice that even some paragons of chaos have prisons. Demon lords, for instance. Imprisonment isn't anathema to a chaotic character, unless that character is being imprisoned. Or has chosen to make imprisonment his own personal quest.

The majority of CG characters do not go around lamenting over prisons. I think to a CG character, the question of whether one should be in prison or not is actually just "does this being deserve to be free". (As opposed to the Lawful question, "does this being deserve to be imprisoned") Upon which, the CG character will try some way to get them free. Because of their Chaotic nature, it may not occur to them to try legal methods first, but even then, it certainly won't seem to be much of an option to exhaust legal methods if they seem to be a bit slow in working.

Tycho's attempt to get Anvil to be swayed to help is more strongly Good than Chaotic, I think. But that's a valid option when you are CG.