Hierarchy of Monsters

[WarDragon]

http://threatquality.com/2009/10/28/a-h ... -monsters/

[Jaerc]

I agree with 60% of my heart.

[KingCrazyGenius]

I am inclined to agree with pretty much all of that. Especially the part about vampires.

[Omegalith]

This guy makes a lot of clumsy and unfounded conclusions. Werewolves are immune to curses? Have you ever seen a Werewolf be hit by a curse? And Imhotep is basically the Dracula of movie mummies, I hardly think that he's representative.

As for Vampires, there is a massive level of variation amongst them and I can only assume he's talking about the Buffy type, which he's basically right about. Even without being Vlad himself though, there's plenty that can overpower a werewolf or Frankenstein’s monster without any hassle. While Vamps in general are painfully overexposed in the media, Twilight "Vampires" have nothing in common with the basic idea beyond the blood thing, and mosquitoes can say that.

I could say a lot more, but my interest wanes.

[KingCrazyGenius]

This guy makes a lot of clumsy and unfounded conclusions. Werewolves are immune to curses? Have you ever seen a Werewolf be hit by a curse? And Imhotep is basically the Dracula of movie mummies, I hardly think that he's representative.

I think in the case of the Wolf-Man, his curse is specifically stated in such a way as to prevent anything but a silver bullet from stopping him; other curses included. This need not apply to all werewolves. As for The Mummy, he was talking about Imhotep specifically; not just a generic mummy.

As for Vampires, there is a massive level of variation amongst them and I can only assume he's talking about the Buffy type, which he's basically right about. Even without being Vlad himself though, there's plenty that can overpower a werewolf or Frankenstein’s monster without any hassle. While Vamps in general are painfully overexposed in the media, Twilight "Vampires" have nothing in common with the basic idea beyond the blood thing, and mosquitoes can say that.

I would argue that for every vampire that can defeat a typical werewolf in melee combat, there are about fourty that cannot. With Frankenstein's monster, the ratio would increase to about 1 in 5. In every fiction I am aware of that involves vampires being superhuman, werewolves tend to be even moreso.

When it comes to these kinds of monsters, I am personally inclined to go with WoD interpretetions most of the time, being as that is one of the few areas where they are systematically codified. D&D does it too, but their vampires are damn ridiculous in their power.

[Omegalith]

D&D does it too, but their vampires are damn ridiculous in their power.

Isn't WoD the setting where a high ranking Vampire took a huge alliance of various mystical beings and a satellite focusing sunlight directly on to him several days to beat down? I honestly can't remember the details very well but it was pretty ridiculous.

[The Serge]

Traditionally, vampires have been faster than werewolves, if not necessarily as strong. They have also been significantly more maneuverable (turning into a bat, mist, or whathaveyou offers some intereting options). Vampires can't be killed by most means, including sunlight (if we go with Stoker's version). They're also smarter.

This whole werewolf being stronger than vampires trend is a new one that has developed because vampires have saturated the market. Since the late 70s with Anne Rice's novels, vampires have increasingly lost their powers and strength in an idiotic bid to portray them more "realistically" (which is really, reall dumb) as well as more sensually/dramatically rather than as the monsters they are.

I disagree with most of this guy's list. I think he's basing his perspective almost exclusively upon recent developments and market saturation/trends rather than on a broader canvas. He needs to read more books and watch more movies before writing his ranks.

[Omegalith]

That's basically what I was thinking. There's also a lot more Werewolves that far outclass regular wolves than there used to be. That is, Werewolves usually are supernaturally enchanced, but the average level of enhancement has crept up.

[The Serge]

This guy makes a lot of clumsy and unfounded conclusions. Werewolves are immune to curses? Have you ever seen a Werewolf be hit by a curse? And Imhotep is basically the Dracula of movie mummies, I hardly think that he's representative.

I think in the case of the Wolf-Man, his curse is specifically stated in such a way as to prevent anything but a silver bullet from stopping him; other curses included. This need not apply to all werewolves. As for The Mummy, he was talking about Imhotep specifically; not just a generic mummy.

Which is one of the reasons his list stinks. His list seems to encompass both creature groups (with limited attention paid to which generation of creatures he's using) with paragons of those various groups. There's a lot of bleed within those areas.

I would argue that for every vampire that can defeat a typical werewolf in melee combat, there are about fourty that cannot. With Frankenstein's monster, the ratio would increase to about 1 in 5. In every fiction I am aware of that involves vampires being superhuman, werewolves tend to be even moreso.

Can you offer some examples of this?

One example here would be Stephen King's own universe. The vampire in Salem's Lot would have run circles around the werewolf in the short story he wrote, and both of these creatures in King's universe incorporated most, if not all, of the legendary qualities associated with their kind.

When it comes to these kinds of monsters, I am personally inclined to go with WoD interpretetions most of the time, being as that is one of the few areas where they are systematically codified. D&D does it too, but their vampires are damn ridiculous in their power.

Although I don't particularly care for all of D&D's interpretations for these creatures, I think WoD is far too limited and too influenced by pop trends of the 80s and 90s. Their vampires are the children of Rice's gothic melodrama without the power, which influenced virtually every vampiric rendition since its inception. Including and especially lame-ass Twilight.

[The Serge]

I was just thinking about this.

If this guy is ranking specific monsters, I may be more inclined to agree with most of his rankings. The problem is, as I said, his including typical, garden variety fare with unique personalities. Yes, I'd agree that the Wolf-Man could take down a typical vampire; I would not agree that the typical werewolf could defeat the typical vampire.

The Mummy's a special case as his power (and arguably the power of the unique personalities on the list) depends upon which movie/text one is using. Even Dracula's powers and immunities have evolved since Stoker's writing. The original Dracula could be killed by a regular bullet in the day (although he could survive during the day, he was enervated and restricted to one form); as of Dracula as presented in Van Helsing, nothing short of the bite from a werewolf (and it had to be a special werewolf) could kill him.

So, these rankings ought to take into account the various iterations over the decades (or centuries in the case of Frankenstein and Dracula) rather than as just gut reactions based upon current cultural trends.

[KingCrazyGenius]

Although I don't particularly care for all of D&D's interpretations for these creatures, I think WoD is far too limited and too influenced by pop trends of the 80s and 90s. Their vampires are the children of Rice's gothic melodrama without the power, which influenced virtually every vampiric rendition since its inception. Including and especially lame-ass Twilight.

I'm perfectly happy with vampires being more along the lines of the ones in Stoker's novel if they are also as numerous as the ones in Stoker's novel. The more vampires there are, the less sense it makes for them to be awesome superheroes.

Though the WoD vamps have plenty of power through their disciplines, including the super speed, super strength, super resilience, mental powers, shapeshifting, and what not; though they have to drink lots of extra blood to make regular use of them.

[Phaedros]

I'm perfectly happy with vampires being more along the lines of the ones in Stoker's novel if they are also as numerous as the ones in Stoker's novel. The more vampires there are, the less sense it makes for them to be awesome superheroes.

You need to consider their power relative to the rest of the setting. A CR 10 Dracula might be nigh-unstoppable in our world, but not in the average D&D world.

[Leshok]

Interesting!

I do agree with the comparison of the Wolf man vs any other were wolf. His curse specifically made him only vulnerable to silver bullets. Which would make him immune to any other forms of "dispatching him."

I still vote Godzilla IS king of the monsters! lol

[KingCrazyGenius]

I've seen enough fights where Godzilla needed help taking out King Ghidora to challenge that claim.

[Omegalith]

Many Godzilla films are seperate continuities. Final Wars Godzilla is nigh indisputably the true monster king.

[KingCrazyGenius]

Many Godzilla films are seperate continuities.

HOW HAVE I NEVER THOUGHT OF THIS?

Godzilla: Destroy All Monsters: Melee was an awesome game.

[Omegalith]

HOW HAVE I NEVER THOUGHT OF THIS?

The one where Godzilla is the incarnated rage and madness of the ghosts of everyone who died in the pacific during World War II and King Ghidorah was one of three benevolent guardian deities didn't tip you off?

Godzilla: Destroy All Monsters: Melee was an awesome game.

Yes, yes it was.

And now: Cool fanart!

[Leshok]

yeah different directors and producers have done different things with big G. I am still sore of the monstrosity that was Godzilla vs King Kong!

[Omegalith]

Do bear in mind that a genuine battle between the two would involve a 25-foot mammal that completely ignores the square-cube law fighting a 167 _{(at the time of the early movies, up to 334 later)} foot lizard who flat out reverses the same law at times capable of spitting spit nuke-beams.

As a cheap and silly cash in, King Kong versus Godzilla is ultimately no more offensive than any other film at the low end of the sliding-scale of rubber suit Godzilla film quality*.

*_{It should be noted that the sliding-scale of rubber suit Godzilla film quality is amongst the harshest of mistresses I have known.}

[Kain Darkwind]

Do bear in mind that a genuine battle between the two would involve a 25-foot mammal that completely ignores the square-cube law fighting a 167 _{(at the time of the early movies, up to 334 later)} foot lizard who flat out reverses the same law at times capable of spitting spit nuke-beams.

As a cheap and silly cash in, King Kong versus Godzilla is ultimately no more offensive than any other film at the low end of the sliding-scale of rubber suit Godzilla film quality.

I would like to point out at this time that the film Godzilla, King of the Monsters, stated Godzilla to be an incredible 400m tall. Unless I'm misremembering, it has been over a decade since I saw it.

[Omegalith]

Yes, that is what the dub said, however in the untranslated version a scientist estimated 50 metres, which is 167 feet.

... Sometimes I look at something I have written and my nerdiness slaps me in the face like a burly fishmonger.

[KingCrazyGenius]

Japan is a very tiny place, with very tiny people. In order to make their buildings look like they are the same size as ours, it is necessary to say they are bigger in translation.

[Luz]

As a cheap and silly cash in, King Kong versus Godzilla is ultimately no more offensive than any other film at the low end of the sliding-scale of rubber suit Godzilla film quality*.

Yeah, but it was all those crappy rubber-suit Godzilla films that inspired the awesome War of the Monsters for PS2. King Kong vs. Godzilla? You decide...

[Leshok]

i'm just saying Godzilla is everything i dream and aspire to be.

[bluemage55]

You need to consider their power relative to the rest of the setting. A CR 10 Dracula might be nigh-unstoppable in our world, but not in the average D&D world.

CR 10 monsters aren't nigh-unstoppable in our world. A giant squid is CR 9 and still goes down to a hail of automatic weapons fire or a cruise missile. A supernatural CR 10 like a vampire might get an ad-hoc increase to their EL due to people being unaware of how to deal with them, but even so they aren't unstoppable.